Posts by Sea Breeze

I'm sorry GB, I thought you knew. Virtually all of the NT scriptures don't apply to you, (according to your leader) especially ones that say you can be saved and have guarantees for life.

United in Worship p.111
"Special attention was being given to making up the government that would rule mankind for 1,000 years, and nearly all the inspired letters in the Christian Greek Scriptures are primarily directed to this group of Kingdom heirs - "the holy ones," "partakers of the heavenly calling."

Watchtower 1974 June 15 p.376
"Also, it is to the spirit-anointed Christians who will rule in that kingdom that most of the Christian Greek Scriptures is directed, including the promises of everlasting life."

The bible teaches that humans die and then they are being resurrected. No human goes to heaven until the second coming of Jesus.

Here your confusion is related to the fact that you hold a materialism view of the nature of man.

The bible says we are a tri-partite being with each part "You". I have explained this scripturally before to you but you don't receive it.

2 Corinthians 5:8

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:6

Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord

When a Christian dies his soul (him) is immediately in the presence of the Lord in heaven. This is not a resurrection.

A resurrection occurs when the soul, body and spirt are united. Only then does a resurrection occur.

You have a hard time with this concept because of your WT indoctrination. Would you like to see a biblical definition of death?

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Sea Breeze

SB
If all the Christians are the bride of Christ, who are going to be wedding guests?

@GB - Still trying to figure out a way to get in other than the front door ?

First of all, the marriage supper takes place in heaven. So, right off the bat you got a problem if you think some secondary class of believers like the WT presents are there. According to them, this imaginary group never goes to heaven. So, right away your objection is shot down by WT's own theology.

Like I mentioned on another thread, Jesus cleared this matter up on whether or not we need to be born-again with a new spirit or not. This way we don't get confused and misdirected by false brothers who try to teach "another way" in.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (Romans 8:9 KJV)

Parables only teach a certain point to reveal a certain truth. You can take any illustration too far an make up just about anything. Romans 8: 9 is the point. You simply cannot get around that. If you are not spirit-begotten you are not friends with Jesus. You are rejected, period.

In his vision in Revelation 19:7–10, John saw and heard the heavenly multitudes praising God because the wedding feast of the Lamb—literally, the “marriage supper”—was about to begin. The concept of the marriage supper is better understood in light of the wedding customs in the time of Christ.

From GotQuestions.org :

These wedding customs had three major parts. First, a marriage contract was signed by the parents of the bride and the bridegroom, and the parents of the bridegroom or the bridegroom himself would pay a dowry to the bride or her parents. This began what was called the betrothal period—what we would today call the engagement. This period was the one Joseph and Mary were in when she was found to be with child (Matthew 1:18; Luke 2:5).

The second step in the process usually occurred a year later, when the bridegroom, accompanied by his male friends, went to the house of the bride at midnight, creating a torchlight parade through the streets. The bride would know in advance this was going to take place, and so she would be ready with her maidens, and they would all join the parade and end up at the bridegroom’s home. This custom is the basis of the parable of the ten virgins in Matthew 25:1–13. The third phase was the marriage supper itself, which might go on for days, as illustrated by the wedding at Cana in John 2:1–2.

What John’s vision in Revelation pictures is the wedding feast of the Lamb (Jesus Christ) and His bride (the Church) in its third phase. The implication is that the first two phases have already taken place. The first phase was completed on earth when each individual believer placed his or her faith in Christ as Savior. The dowry paid to the bridegroom’s parent (God the Father) would be the blood of Christ shed on the Bride’s behalf. The Church on earth today, then, is “betrothed” to Christ, and, like the wise virgins in the parable, all believers should be watching and waiting for the appearance of the Bridegroom (the rapture). The second phase symbolizes the rapture of the Church, when Christ comes to claim His bride and take her to the Father’s house. The marriage supper then follows as the third and final step. It is our view that the marriage supper of the Lamb takes place in heaven between the rapture and the second coming (during the tribulation on earth).

Attending the wedding feast will be not only the Church as the Bride of Christ, but others as well. The “others” include the Old Testament saints—they will not have been resurrected yet, but their souls/spirits will be in heaven with us. As the angel told John to write, “Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb” (Revelation 19:9). The marriage supper of the Lamb is a glorious celebration of all who are in Christ!

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Sea Breeze

GB l haven't read all of your posts but you mention:
" l have other sheep not of this fold .......and they will become one flock with one shepherd "
How's about the other sheep are Gentiles? Jesus was talking to Jews who believed up to that point that only they were God's people.

Jhine,

This is very obvious and thanks for pointing that out. The whole world knows that the other sheep are gentiles. Only JW's maintain that the "other sheep" are some secret group of people (heretics), unknown to the apostles that have a different way of getting into the kingdom other than the new covenant "for the forgiveness of sins". The apostles never preached this. And scriptures say that if we preach a gospel that the apostles didn't preach we are cursed. (Gal. 1:8-9)t

This parable reinforces the importance of entering through the invitation process, and not "some other way".

So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. (Everyone is invited - both bad and good)

11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: (clothed with righteousness)

12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how did you get in here not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

GodBeliever is this man with no wedding garment. Take the invitation GB.

35

According to Jehovah's Witnesses, who will be saved?

by Vanderhoven7 in

i know who won't be saved according to witnesses and that includes just about everyone alive at armageddon who is not a jehovah’s witness.

.

others who are permanently lost include adam and eve, those who died in the flood, people of sodom and gomorrah and apostates to their one true religion..

Sea Breeze

There are places on the Earth where the neither the Bible or Christianity has ever been heard of.

More good thoughts TBK.

But that doesn't have anything to do with your personal judgement does it? If God has made the basis of righteousness (being morally debt-free) - belief; then I'm sure that he will judge accordingly whether or not anyone has "believed" to the best of their ability. I believe he is a righteous judge, and will do what is right. That is his nature. But, he is that standard, not me.

I think of the thief on the cross. At first both criminals were railing against Jesus. But, for one of them, after he hung there for a while and thought about it, decided that he wanted to be saved. I don't believe that he knew hardly anything of a theological nature. Yet, Jesus honored his choice. Why would not God honor the same from a native american who cried out to "The Great Spirit"? I believe he is a righteous judge, and will do what is right. That is his nature. And what is "right" seems to be some mixture of law and grace. The cross is where Law meets Grace. But, there is not a legal imperative to save any of us.

The heart of the Lord, is Love, ,adoption, relationship, inheritance etc. But, the problem is that most of us don't want to be saved. God is eventually bound to honor that choice as well, as much he would like not to. The price of Free Will, is very high. So, while judgement is not the heart of the Lord, it is part of his position. Reluctantly, he will discharge that duty. If he forever never did anything about it, that would make him an enabler of sin and its author by default. But, as it is in order to preserve free will, God has chosen to judge sin as opposed to making us all robots incapable of love.

The suffering we experience is made by us and therefor only we can save ourselves. There is also no need for anyone else to punish us. We punish ourselves.

Some truth here. The Law of attraction is real and similar to what you say. But, when we try to take this principle too far we run into ludicrous scenarios like; lets just get rid of the police, courts and judges because after all sinful people will attract a lot of negativity into their lives and thus punish themselves. Would you like to get rid of your local police?

The suffering we experience is made by us and therefor only we can save ourselves.

I believe that biblical dispensations or ages are designed to answer a specific existential question, to answer man's objection as to why he cannot or will not obey God.

People couldn't trust God because they didn't have enough information as to what he wanted. So, he gave us the Law. After 1500 years and man's failure to obey the Law, he gave us the age of Grace. Man now complains that he can't obey God under Grace because of the environment. Some people just live in the wrong place, have a bad government, family, spouse etc. So, the Millennium Age will finally address the final question of nature vs. nature. Even under perfect safety, and righteous government with no corrupt politicians, people will still seek freedom from God.... because the sin nature will still be there for those people. They are not glorified. I believe many will have a new spirit, like Christians today. But their children may not even have that. At the end of that period the wicked will be like the sands of the sea shore.

The Law, while good in and of itself is also a curse. Because we cannot keep it. Jesus became a curse for us.

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Sea Breeze

There just seems to be something a little extra perverse and extra fallen in the mindset of active JW's. I had it too, I remember.

But, the further I get away from it, the clearer I see my past mindset. It's like a guy who insists on crashing a party where everyone was already invited. He just couldn't couldn't go in through the door. Or, like a kid who will lie when the truth sounds better. Looking back, it was just such a contrarian way to live.

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Sea Breeze

GB believes that if he can't be declared righteous the way God says to do it, then he can a least be God's friend. How? By dis-believing and dis-obeying God. It's crazy, But this is exactly what he was taught.

God says to eat and drink of the new covenant "for the forgiveness of sins". The WT says not to. Whom to believe? We have a choice - free will.

This is a link to the official WT teaching on how you can be declared righteous by disobeying Jesus.... with some of my own notes of course.

https://www.bibleready.org/_files/ugd/7f3e67_280498c8ef394dc796a2fd2e45636c76.pdf

Fortunately, Jesus cleared this matter up on whether or not we need to be born-again with a new spirit or not. This way we don't get confused and misdirected:

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (Romans 8:9 KJV)

If you are not spirit-begotten you are not friends with Jesus. You are rejected.

35

According to Jehovah's Witnesses, who will be saved?

by Vanderhoven7 in

i know who won't be saved according to witnesses and that includes just about everyone alive at armageddon who is not a jehovah’s witness.

.

others who are permanently lost include adam and eve, those who died in the flood, people of sodom and gomorrah and apostates to their one true religion..

Sea Breeze

TBK,

Good questions. First some concept clearing.

1. We are a Tri-Partite being. As such, we will be conscious forever. The question is where? Is it total abandonment in "outer darkness" is it literal hell fire? I recommend side-stepping the details of that question. One is horrible, the other is worse. Life without God is going to be existence without experiencing anything that could be considered good. There is no other possibility. No sunshine, no waterfalls, no baskets of puppies, no fulfilling relationships, no love. God is the author of good. If we reject God (the real one as opposed to the one we sometimes imagine) we are rejecting ALL that is good.

So, we don't have a choice about whether or not we will forever be conscious (google terminal lucidity and out of body near death experiences for plenty of circumstantial evidence that our consciousness is separate from our body). This should impress upon us the seriousness of the topic.

But Jesus made it clear that we do have a choice about where we will spend eternity. It is a not a location, it is a Person. If it is with God, it will be all good all the time, forever, in heaven, on earth and probably everywhere in between.

2. The second concept to get is that unlike what the WT teaches, where they imagine that people sin because they are weak, or because they don't go to enough meetings, or field service etc.; people sin because they have a sin nature. It is our nature to sin, so we do. We do not naturally want God as our father. We want the object of our devotion to be an idol, religion or an organization. We want one that is performance based so we can a least take a little bit of credit for our good fortunes.

3. God wants a real relationship with us, not based on performance. I married my wife and at times her performance is just not there. Same goes for my performance. We love each other because we are one flesh. I love my sons, not based on their performance, but based on the fact that they are my own flesh. We are family. Love is natural, because it is the nature of family. But, we are not born as part of God's family.

So, if God is after our hearts, our love, and is seeking to make us part of his family that surpasses performance, then how do we deal with such a God? How exactly do people such as ourselves have a relationship with the possessor of infinite wisdom, knowledge & power? In our broken flesh we are scared of him, we hide from him, we try to work for him to appease him, & we ignore him. Notice that all of these reactions are not ones we would see in a healthy marriage or in healthy family relationships. This kind of response is maladaptive, resulting from a perverse and foreign sin nature.

So, it is really our sin nature that is so offensive to God. This is what he wants to destroy, not us....because it is what separates us from him and makes it impossible for us to have a normal relationship. The way we are now, is not satisfying to either one of us.

Enter: Free Will.

Did I choose my wife? Or, did she choose me? The answer is Yes. If it was one sided, then love would be impossible. Love MUST be given by CHOICE. Love is the one thing God cannot create (outside of his own triune nature) BY HIMSELF. Love is by nature a collaborative affair. So what is the basis for a relationship with God. If its not performance, begging, manipulating, bargaining or appeasement, what is it?

The basis is the same as any relationship - BELIEF. I believed my girlfriend and so I enter into a marriage contract with her. 18 years later, I still believe in her and she in me. Good times or bad, we are still going to discharge our duties, and we believe that.

When Jesus was asked what must they do to be saved, the first word out of his mouth was "believe". Like in my marriage, I cannot always perform, but I can always believe.

I can argue with God, reason with him, try to manipulate him and try to appease him... all totally unnecessary and offensive. But, what he wants is for us to believe him. Belief precedes sin (and goodness for that matter). When Eve sinned, she first chose not to believe what God had said. Only then did she act externally in a manner consistent with what had already happened internally.

Because of what Jesus did, he restored the ability to choose. In a sense, we are all now jettisoned back to the same moral position that Eve was in. She didn't have a sin nature and thus was free to choose. So, while we cannot choose to be free of the sin nature, we can choose to believe God. If we do, God says that's good enough for him and he immediately destroys the sin nature in our spirit and gives us a new one. It is a down payment that we can experience in the here and now on the full payment when he destroys our sin nature in our flesh and soul when we are resurrected or raptured, if we live till then.

The question is not why should we choose God. The real question that many deceptions seek to hide is, why would anyone seek to live eternally in the absence of anything that could be considered good? The gates of hell are all locked from the inside.

God... endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath...He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, ...not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles. (Romans 9) That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. - Ephesians 2:7

God has made it clear, that he fully intends to honor our choice on whether or not to believe him. Those that do, he will parade as his Trophy... believers are trophies of Grace... just as I consider my sweetie a trophy wife.

“I will call them My people, who were not My people,

And her beloved, who was not beloved.”

“And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,

‘You are not My people,’

There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

31

WHEN is the Kingdom of God coming?

by Fisherman in

when is the kingdom of god coming?.

on being asked by the pharisees when the kingdom of god was coming, he answered them: “the kingdom of god is not coming with paratherisis; 21 nor will people say, ‘see here!’ or, ‘there!’ for look!

the kingdom of god is in your midst.” —lu 17:20,21. .

Sea Breeze

It wouldn’t be fair if all of a sudden at anytime in human history without any hint or signs, Jesus shows up to judge and execute everybody.

Why are JW's are always telling God what is and isn't fair? Fair would be if God struck us all dead for our sins. Your next breath is a kindness from the Lord.

And thankfully, that isn't what happens. The Anti-Christ does all the killing. Jesus shows up as

Savior to end the rule of the Anti-Christ and keep people from totally annihilating each other. "Unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved".

This is the GT period. Christians will have been long-gone by then, raptured to heaven in the twinkling of an eye.

35

According to Jehovah's Witnesses, who will be saved?

by Vanderhoven7 in

i know who won't be saved according to witnesses and that includes just about everyone alive at armageddon who is not a jehovah’s witness.

.

others who are permanently lost include adam and eve, those who died in the flood, people of sodom and gomorrah and apostates to their one true religion..

Sea Breeze

What are people being saved from?

I was in field service once with the Presiding Overseer and when he got back to the car, he was boasting that when a HH asked him if he was saved, he snapped back, "saved from what". He said the man just stared at him. Everyone in the car had a big laugh.

I don't recall Hebrews 9: 27 ever being quoted at a KH or publication.....ever.

"it is appointed unto man once to die and then judgement". We are saved from judgement. Jesus was judged in our place.

Just as the ancient priests put the sins of the people onto a goat, and then sent him into the wilderness to face certain death, God puts our personal sins onto the Lamb of God "for us".

Jesus is our scapegoat, if we accept the offer. This is why people at the doors were always asking us if Jesus was our personal savior. It was because they knew from attending any decent church that there will be a personal judgement, after we die.

As JW's, we were never taught this. In JW theology, you self-atone just by dying .... regardless of whether or not you want it.